All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

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73/10/05 Bombay, Bhagavad-gita 13.8-12

Prabhupada: So we have been discussing for the last few days about the process of knowledge. So we have discussed already amanitvam, humbleness. Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa. Ahimsa, non-violence. So ahimsa ksantih, tolerance, arjavam, simplicity. These things we have already discussed.

Now another important thing is acaryopasanam. If you want to make progress, then you have to approach acarya. Just like if you want to be educated, you go to school, you go to college, you go to university, similarly, if you want to be advanced in knowledge... knowledge means not this material knowledge. Actual knowledge is to advance in spiritual knowledge.

Just in this Bhagavad-gita the beginning of knowledge was instructed by Krsna that "I am not this body." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13]." I am encaged in this body. I am not this body. Unfortunately at the present moment, this is accepted knowledge, bodily concept. "I am." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brahmana," "I am ksatriya." This is going on. Actually the knowledge begins when one understands I am not American, "I am not Indian," I am not brahmana," "I am not ksatriya." Then what you are? Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanu-dasa: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna, the provider of the gopis," Gopi-bhartuh. That is my real identification. Not this body.

So to understand this knowledge one has to approach acarya. Acarya means one who knows the purpose of Vedic literature, sastra. Asrnoti yah sastram. And practices and teaches his disciple. He knows. Acarya means knows. One who knows the purpose of Vedic literature, he practices in his life, and he teaches his disciple. He is called acarya. So acarya upasanam. Before worshiping the Lord... Just like here Krsna said in the beginning, acaryopasanam, and in the middle he says, mayi cananya-yogena bhaktir avyabhicarini. So before engaging yourself in devotional service to the Lord, you must first of all worship acarya, acaryopasanam. One cannot become a devotee personally. Just like some rascals say, "What is the use of accepting guru?" Of course, they have got very bad experience.

But who is acarya? Acarya means one who has received the Vedic knowledge through the parampara system. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. He is acarya. Acarya cannot be manufactured, self-made. No. He must come down from the disciplic succession. He is acarya. You have to approach such acarya who is coming in disciplic succession. acaryavan puruso veda. One who is under the shelter of acarya, he knows things. So Krsna recommends also here that if you actually want to become in knowledge, if you want to have real knowledge, then you must worship acarya. Acaryopasanam. This is Vedic system. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12].

It is not that "If I like, I can go to a guru; if I don't like I can learn the books at home and learn everything." No, that is not possible. Practically... Just like if you purchase some medical book and study at home and if you begin to practice, you will be called a quack. You will not be recognized by the government. You will not get the practitioner's registration. You will not. Unless you have passed through the medical college, your medical examination, you will not be accepted, even if you say that "I have read all the books." Similarly, if you simply think that "I have read... As we see generally, "Oh, I have read Bhagavad-gita hundred times." But you ask him what is Krsna, he cannot say. Because he has not approached the acarya. This is the difficulty. He might have read Bhagavad-gita a thousand times, but he will not understand a single word because he has not approached.

Therefore Vedic literature says tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet." This word is used when the sense is "You must." This is vidhi-lin form of verb, gacchet, abhigacchet. You must. There is no excuse. You cannot learn. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. If you want to know uttamam subject matter... Ut, ut means udgatam, transcending. Tamah means this material world. This material world is tama, darkness. But if you are interested in the matter which is transcendental to this material world, that means spiritual world, then tasmad gurum prapadyeta, you must surrender to a guru.

Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. Not ordinary jijnasuh. Just like we go to the market, "What is the rate of this share? What is the rate of rice? What is the rate of dahl?" Not that kind of jij... Brahma jijnasuh. Athato brahma jijnasa. This human life is meant for inquiring about Brahman, not this rice, dahl, share market. No.

So jijnasuh sreya uttamam, what is the highest perfection of life, he requires to approach a guru. It is not a fashion. It is not a fashion that "I have made my guru, such and such Swami." But what you have learned? You cannot learn because you are not at all jijnasuh. You do not know how to inquire, neither the guru you have met, he does know how to reply. Such kind of guru and disciple will not help. The disciple must be also serious to understand about the spiritual subject matter. That is knowledge, brahma-jijnasa. One who is inquisitive to know about the Absolute Truth, he requires to approach a guru. That is jnana. Jnana means brahma-jnana. Aham brahmasmi. This is jnana. And if I am American, that is not jnana. That is ajnana. "I am Indian," "I am brahmana," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am fat," "I am thin." These are all ajnana, ignorance. You are neither fat nor thin nor black nor white nor American, but you are spirit soul. You have to know that. Aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul. I am eternal servant of Krsna." That is knowledge. And for this knowledge you must approach, acaryopasanam.

Saucam, cleanliness. That is very essential. This morning I was talking with Tamal Krsna Gosvami. Cleanliness is... As soon as you give up cleanliness, you become mleccha and yavana. Mleccha, yavana, these two names have come into Vedic sastras, one who is unclean." Why there was always misunderstanding between the Hindus and the Muslims? I am talking of practical life. Because the Muslims were very unclean and the Hindus are supposed... now Hindus are less than Muslim, less than Muslim. And still, they are claiming... Saucam. They are most unclean at the present moment, so deteriorated. Publicly it is being advertised, "Here is beef shop. Come on. Equality. Equality by eating beef, drinking wine." Now this is coming. Saucam. Saucam. Cleanliness. Cleanliness is next to godliness. You must take twice bath at least. It is required. And in tropical countries like India, there is no difficulty taking bath three times. Of course, if your body does not permit... But that is Saucam, to clean. Saucam. Saucam bahyabhyantaram.

apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantaram sucih

The brahmana is called therefore suci. He is always clean, taking three times bath, cloth washed, mouth, hands, legs, all clean, with tilaka. That is brahmana. Saucam. This is externally. And internally you have to become also saucam. Bahyabhyantaram. Bahya mean externally you have to cleanse yourself with water, soap or earth. And internally you have to be cleansed by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Because if you remain unclean within the heart, simply by washing your external body and cleansing your cloth, that is not complete cleanliness. That may be called hygienic. But real cleanliness is internally and externally. Yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantaram sucih. So you have to cleansed yourself externally and internally.

By remembering, yah smaret pundarikaksam, the lotus-eyed Krsna, if you always think, that is suci. And in Bengali there is a word, poetry, muci haya suci haya yadi krsna bhaje. If one is Krsna conscious, even if he is born in a cobbler's family, muci... In India there are two things, muci and suci. Suci means perfect brahmana, and muci means cobbler, the shoemaker. So muci haya suci haya yadi krsna bhaje. If one becomes Krsna conscious, even if he is born in the family of a muci, camara, he can become a brahmana. And suci haya muci haya yadi krsna tyaje. And if he gives up Krsna, even if he's born in a brahmana family, he becomes a muci.

Muci means the skin expert. If he is simply busy, "I am this skin, brahmana skin..." Your behavior? "No, that doesn't matter. So that means skin expert. Just like muci knows how to distinguish whether it is cow's skin or goat's skin or this skin.

No. One must be Krsna conscious. Then he is cleansed. Sa bahyabhyantaram sucih. Yah smaret pundarikaksam. This is Krsna consciousness. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. One who is always thinking of Krsna -- Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama -- he is suci. He is no more muci. Muci haya suci haya yadi krsna bhaje. Sthairyam atma-vinigrahah.

Controlling the senses, atma-vinigrahah. That is called swami, gosvami. If you can control your senses... Vaco-vegam krodha-vegam. If you can control your force of talking nonsense... Because generally we talk nonsense. So if you can control your talking of nonsense things, then you will become controller of talking. Vaco-vegam krodha-vegam. Naturally because we are generally affected with rajas-tamo-guna, raja-guna especially and tamo-guna, we become angry all of a sudden. So we have to control that. Vaco-vegam krodha-vegam manaso-vegam. Mind is very restless. So you have to control the mind. You cannot allow the mind to do anything and everything, but it must be controlled. Sthairyam atma-vinigrahah. Indriyarthesu vairagyam. Indriyarthesu.

For the matter of sense gratification you have to practice vairagya. Indriya. Our all the indriyas -- eyes, tongue, nose -- they are very much, I mean to say, affected or attracted. Eyes, always attracted by beauty. "I want to see very beautiful thing." But you can control the eyes when you practice to see the beautiful feature of Lord Krsna and Radharani. Therefore the Deity should be very nicely decorated so layman like us may be attracted by the beauty of Radha-Krsna. Gradually, he will forget to see any other beauty. This is the practice of indriyarthesu. Indriyarthesu vairagyam.

Actually the whole life is meant for understanding vairagya, renouncement. Human life is not meant for becoming more and more attached to the material enjoyment. Human life is meant for tapasya, vairagya. Here it is said, vairagyam, anahankara, and false prestige, false identification. "Oh, am this. I must do this." That is... In the beginning it is taught, amanitvam, anahankaram. And then janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam. We are very much busy to make solution of the problems of life. Political problems, economical problems, social problems. They are also problems. But real problem is janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi, that you have to take birth, you have to die, and when you are in life, you have to suffer from diseases, jara-vyadhi, and you have to become old. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha. These are really problems. But who knows that these are the real problems? They have taken it, accepted it.

Krsna says, "This is knowledge." If you are scientifically advanced how to stop death, how to stop birth, how to stop old age, how to stop disease, then you should know that you have advanced in science. Otherwise what is this? If you have made a horseless carriage motorcar, that is not advancement. It is advancement, but it is not the solution of the problem. The solution of problem is, human life, is to how to stop death.

Therefore sastra says that nobody should become guru, nobody should become father, nobody should become husband -- in this way there is a list -- na mocayed yah samupetya mrtyum, if one cannot help his student or his son or his subordinate to stop death. Actually this is the problem Na mocayed yah samupetya mrtyum. We are under the clutches of death. "It is as sure as death." So this human life is meant for stopping this death. But if you don't see that this is the problem, that is ajnana. That is ignorance. If you don't accept this is the problem, if you simply think "My problem is how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, how to defend... These problems are already solved, even by the birds and the beasts. These are not the problems. They are already set up. Real problem is here: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam.

Another problem is asaktih. We are very much attached to our so-called home, so-called wife, children. And here is, jnana means that asaktir anabhisvangah, asaktir. You should, therefore, at a certain age, according to Vedic civilization, one is forced to give up this attachment. Naturally, one is attached to wife, children, home. But Vedic civilization says, that is all right from... Up to fifty years, you can remain attached. But pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. After your fiftieth year, you must give up your family life. Vanam vrajet. Go to the forest for tapasya. That was the system. Here at the present moment, everywhere, all over the world, when he is going to die, still he is attached to his political life, social life, family life. That is not knowledge. That is ignorance. You must be detached. Vairagyam. Anabhisvangah. Putra-dara-grhadisu. Family life. Putra means children. Dara means wife. Grha means home. Putra-dara-grhadisu. Asaktir anabhisvangah. Nityam ca sama-cittatvam istanistopapattisu.

In this way you have to be situated on the devotional service. Devotional service is not sentiment. Just like Krsna, after describing so many stages of advancement of knowledge, then he says, mayi ca ananya-yogena bhaktir avyabhicarini. Ananya-yogena. Always... Yoga means linking up. Always linking up with Krsna. Mayi. Krsna says mayi, "Unto Me, Krsna." Mayi ca ananya-yogena bhakti-yogena. So you can become attached with Krsna if you are dovetailed in the service of Krsna, not casually, but constantly. Mayi ca ananya-yogena bhakti-yogena avyabhicarini. Acyabhicarini means without break, always, constantly. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14].

In another place Krsna says, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14], "always glorifying Me." This is Krsna consciousness movement. Always we have to glorify Krsna. We should go, meet people, preach, and glorify Krsna. We beg for Krsna. We print books for Krsna. We distribute book for Krsna. We type for Krsna. We eat for Krsna. We sleep for Krsna. So everything should be dovetailed with Krsna. That is called ananya-yogena, without any break, constantly, twenty-four hours in Krsna consciousness. Avyabhicarini.

Vivikta-desa-sevitvam aratir jana-samsadi [Bg. 13.11]. Aratir jana-samsadi, not very much attached with general public, because they are not Krsna conscious. We can meet them as far as possible, as far as required. Not that we have to sit down and talk all nonsense with these general people. No. Aratir jana-samsadi, and vivikta-desa-sevitvam [Bg. 13.11]. Naturally, we shall be inclined to avoid such company. But preaching work, we have to go. Not to associate with him, but to give your association to him. That should be the principle. Because you have learned something about devotional service, you should give your experience to such person, but not to accept their behavior. If you keep this in view, then you will be preacher. And if you become victimized by his association, then you are doomed. You should give him the opportunity of your association, whatever you know, whatever you have learned about bhakti-yoga. When you go to meet a person, you should try to inform him, "This is Krsna consciousness. You also take to it." As Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna-upadesa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna-upadesa'.

This is real business. Adhyatma-jnana-nityatvam. Spiritual knowledge. That is eternal knowledge. It will not break. If you learn spiritual knowledge, a little of it in this life, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat, then you will be saved from the greatest danger. Tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. If you want to become philosopher, then you philosophize for understanding the tattva-jnana. And what is tattva-jnana?

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]

That is tattva-jnana. Truth. What is that truth? Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti. To understand about Brahman, to understand about Paramatma, to understand about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is tattva-jnana.

So if you want to become philosopher, then philosophically you try to understand what is brahma-tattva, what is Paramatma-tattva, what is Bhagavan-tattva. Etaj jnanam, this is jnana. Not these degrees, MA, Phd. These are all decoration of the dead body. If you do not understand what is the value of life, you do not understand what is tattva, what is Brahman, what is Paramatma, what is God, if you do not become cleansed, if you do not become a devotee, as they are stated, if you have no acarya, you have no guru, then you are in darkness. Krsna concludes here. Etaj jnanam, "All these items described, this is jnanam." Iti proktam. It is accepted, prokta. Ajnanam yad ato 'nyatha: "And just any other thing besides these things, they are ajnanam."

So you compare. You call any educated person. Just like I told you several times, that that Professor Kotovsky, big man in Russia, he said "That there is no life. After finishing this body, everything is finished." Just see how much ajnanam. He does not know. So the whole world is going on under ajnanam. If they accept this Krsna consciousness movement, there is chance of having jnanam. Otherwise they remain in ajnanam. Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.8-12 -- Bombay, October 5, 1973

Hey guys,

Usually I would not post the same message to all my blogs – but there are different people that visit each one of them, and I thought that I really wanted to share this with all of you; forgive me.

There have been times in my life when all seemed lost; I just wanted to end my life right then and there. Were it not for friends and support I would not have made it thought. How many of us have had such thoughts and feelings of anger, loss, confusion – and how many of us have turned to our friends and thanked them for helping us through those times?

I have been in those very situations where I thought there was nothing for me to do. I did find the way out and the answers needed via my friends. They gave me the tools needed to do it myself! I thank them!

My teaching Guru, Srila Prabhupada
My dear friends, Pandava, Chandra, Sura!

And all the others who I am forgetting to name, I thank for you time and selfless effort in helping one get back to Godhead!

"Rascal! Surrender!"
Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.35
Mayapura, October 15, 1974

Nitai: "And yet others say that You appeared to rejuvenate the devotional service of hearing, remembering, worshiping and so on, in order that the conditioned souls suffering from material pangs might take advantage and gain liberation."

Prabhupada:

bhave 'smin klisyamananam
avidya-kama-karmabhih
sravana-smaranarhani
karisyann iti kecana

This is a very important verse. Bhave asmin. Asmin means "this," and bhave, "the material world." Bhava means to grow, means... Grow means which has taken birth. That requires grow. In the material world, there are six kinds of changes: first of all birth, then grow, then stay for some time, then producing some by-product, then diminishing, dwindling, and then vanish. These are the six kinds of changes. Just like this body. It has taken birth at a certain date, and it has grown, that the child is growing. And growing, it will stay, not immediately vanish. It will stay. And while staying, it will create some by-product. From this body, so many sons and daughters will come, by-product. Even tree, they produce also, everyone. Then it becomes old, no more strength, and when it is very old, finish. These are called sad-vikara. That is on account of this body.

So after finishing this body, then I am not finished; I am there. I am, this gross body, finished, but I am within this subtle body -- mind, intelligence and ego. The subtle body carries me to another gross body. These so-called scientists, medical men, they cannot see the subtle body, although one has to accept. Just like I have got mind, you have got mind -- but I cannot see your mind; you cannot see my mind. I have got intelligence; you have got intelligence. Everyone knows. But you cannot see my intelligence; I cannot see your intelligence. They are very subtle. So, and beyond that, the spirit soul is still subtle, so minute quantity. So what these material scientists will see? They cannot see the mind, intelligence, ego, and what to speak of the soul? Therefore they say, "This body is everything, and there is nothing more." But actually that is not the fact. The fact is that the spirit soul is very, very small. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madya 19.140]. Kesagra, the tip of the hair, agra-bhaga, front portion, front portion, sata-bhagasya, you divide into... Can you do it? Take one hair and divide into hundred parts? No, that is not possible. But if... The direction is there. If you can, you can do it. Sata-bhagasya. Then again take one part of that sata-bhaga, one hundredth part, again make it hundred parts.

So it is not possible, impossible by the so-called scientists. But how to learn? Then you have to learn from the authority, "It is like this," that much. It is not under your experimental knowledge. That is not possible. Because your knowledge is so imperfect, you cannot deal with these things. But these rascals, they think... Because they cannot deal with these things, they think that the matter is the cause of life. That's all -- matter, material. But that is... They have not been able to do so. Take matter in the laboratory, chemicals, and produce a small with hands and legs and eyes. We see every night, a small, very, very small, but still, it has got hands, legs and everything, eyes. Otherwise how they are coming to the light? Very small.

So... So we are getting bhava, bhava from that small insect up to the Brahma. Abrahma-bhuvana-stambha,(?) abrahma stambha. Everyone. That is called bhava. There are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and we are finishing one body, entering another body. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Krsna says. Either you have to reject Krsna's word or you have to reject all this so-called scientific research. But we have... We are pledged to Krsna consciousness. We cannot reject Krsna's word. So it is accepted that tatha dehantara-praptih. Now, Krsna says that you have to accept another body. Everyone has to accept. Now, He does not say that "After this body, the next change will be this body." He does not say. He does not say. So... Because that will depend, as it is said here, avidya-kama-karmabhih. Avidya. The... Every living entity is within this material world under avidya. Avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate.

There are many potencies of God, Krsna. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Many millions. So they have been summarized into three. What is that? The external potency, internal potency, two, and third, marginal potency. The marginal potency and internal potency, they are of the same quality. There are same quality. And there is another potency. That is called external potency. What is that external potency? Now, avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate. Visnu-saktih para prokta ksetrajnakhya tatha para [Cc. Madhya 6.154]. Visnu-sakti, the Lord's potency, is para. That is spiritual. Visnu-saktih para. And... Visnu-saktih para... Visnu-sakti. And ksetrajnakhya tatha para. And ksetrajnah, the living entities... The ksetrajna is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, idam sariram ksetram ity abhidhiyate. And one who knows this ksetra... Ksetrajna ity abhidhiyate. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gita. So the living entity is ksetrajna. So ksetrajna is also para. But besides these two sakti, there is another, trtiya sakti, which is avidya, everything in ignorance.

Here in this material world everyone is in ignorance -- everyone, even Brahma. Brahma, he was ignorant, but he was given knowledge by Krsna. Tene brahma hrda adi-kavaye. Adi-kavi means Brahma. So the Vedic knowledge, tene brahma... Brahma means this Vedic knowledge, sabda-brahman. So there was one creature, Brahma only, but he was educated. How he was educated? Hrda. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Because, at that time, there was no other way but to transfer the knowledge from within. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. That is caitya-guru, Krsna, Paramatma. So Brahma was also educated. That means beginning from Brahma down to the small insect, they are all in ignorance, all fools and rascals. That is the constitutional position. Nobody should be proud of his knowledge. Everyone is a rascal, everyone. Here it is said, klisyamananam avidya-kama-karmabhih. So Brahma is desiring that "If I can get the opportunity, the post of Brahma, and I can create a big universe..." He was also thinking like that. And the small insects, it is also thinking like that -- "If I can create a small hole within the room, then I can live very peacefully and eat." The same propensity. As Brahma is thinking to create an universe, you are thinking to create an skyscraper building, the ant is thinking to create a hole within the room -- the quality of the work is the same.

But because we are fools, that these things are material... It will not stay. On account of ignorance, we are thinking that "This will be very nice. This will be very nice. This will be very nice. This will be..." Kama-karmabhih, creating some kama, desire, and working in that way. Therefore klisyanti. To become Brahma, that is not very easy thing. Brahma is such a big post, very qualified, highly advanced in austerities, penance. He is given... He's also a living entity. Just like in your America, you are also a citizen, and President Nixon or Ford, he's also citizen. But by dint of his ardent labor and diplomacy, this way, tha..., he has captured that post. But he's an ordinary citizen. Just like President Nixon. Now he's dragged down. He's no more president. Ordinary citizen. Similarly, if you like you can also become Brahma. Kama-karmabhih.

Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, brahma-janme nahi mora asa, kita-janma hao yatha tuwa dasa. This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song, that "Let me become one insect where there is Your devotee, because if I fall down on the dust of the devotee, my life will be successful." Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, kita-janma hao yatha tuwa dasa, bahir-mukha brahma... Brahma-janma is not easy. It is very difficult. But if Brahma is bahir-mukha -- bahir-mukha means not devotee of Krsna -- it is possible. Because we are in ignorance, maya, at any time we can forget Krsna. Therefore we have to always be engaged in Krsna consciousness so that we may not forget Krsna. And that is stated here, sravana-smarana-arhana. Sravana means hearing, And smarana means memorizing, and arhana means worshiping the Deity. If you engage yourself always in this business... Our, all these centers are being opened only for this business -- chanting, dancing, worshiping -- so that we may not forget Krsna. So sada tad-bhava-bhavitah [Bg. 8.6]. If we are always engaged in thinking of Krsna, then there is chance at the end of life -- ante narayana-smrtih. Then there is chance. Everything has to be practiced. Just like if you want to dance in the stage, so you have to perform many rehearsal, how to dance, how to dance, how to dance. Then, if you become expert dancer, then when you dance on the stage, you get acclaim: "Ah." (makes sound of applause:) "Phut, phut, phut, phut." "Very good dancer." But that "very good dancer," you cannot say, "I go immediately to the stage, and I become a good dancer." That is not possible. If one says, "No, no, no, I don't... I shall not attend the rehearsal. You give me the stage. I shall..." No, no. No director will allow him. He's a rascal. He's a rascal. You cannot become all of a..., a nice dancer without practicing it.

So real purpose of life is ante narayana-smrtih. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante... [Bg. 8.6]. If at the time of death you can remember, you can memorize Krsna, then your life is successful. Smarana. So it has to be practiced. (aside:) Where...? You have got that? You could not? Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa. Kirata...

Devotee: It's in the Second Canto, Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupada: Ah, he knows. Second Canto, Fourth Chapter. So asmin bhave. This is the problem. These rascals, they do not care to understand. They are so absorbed in ignorance. Just like some of the, what is called, smugglers. Smugglers, they go on with their work. They do not know... Some of them know also that "We'll be punished. We'll be arrested." Still, they go on. That is the difficulty. A thief knows that "If I am arrested for these criminal acts, I'll be punished." He knows it. And perhaps he has been punished several times. But still, he commits the same thing. Still, he steals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30].

So why? Ignorance. Ignorance. So therefore this very word is used, avidya. He never thinks... He is so much absorbed in ignorance that he has no time to think that "Repeatedly I am stealing, and repeatedly I am arrested, and I am punished. I sent to jail. Why I am doing this?" Result is not very good. Just like a person too much sexually inclined. He suffers in so many venereal diseases, undergoes operation, and still, he goes to prostitute, again does the same thing. This is avaidha-stri-sanga, illegitimate. And legitimate also. After sex, the woman is pregnant, and she has to suffer for ten months. And at the time of delivery it is very dangerous sometimes. And the man also, after he gets the child, he has to take care of the child. He has to work hard to give education. This is proper, proper sex. The proper sex there are so many difficulties. And what is the..., what to speak of the improper sex? You kill the child. You take contraceptive. You make this; you make that. Therefore sastra says, bahu-duhkha-bhajah. After sex life, oh, there are so many troubles, bahu-duhkha-bhajah, simply trouble, either legitimate or illegitimate, simply trouble. Trpyanti neha krpana. But because he is a rascal, ignorant, he's not satisfied, again does the same thing. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Again. This is called bhava-roga. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham, kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. Iva duhkha-duhkham. Simply trouble. Therefore Vedic civilization is to train these small boys to remain brahmacari, not to take trouble. But if one is unable, he's allowed. So on being trained up in the beginning as brahmacari, he does not stay for many years in the family life. He retires very soon and becomes vanaprastha, then sannyasa. That is the training.

So here it is said, klisyamananam. They are... Everyone is suffering -- birds, beasts, animals and trees, plants, and even Brahma, even Indra. Indra is also not safe. He is always anxious: "Nobody, competitor, may come." So here in this material world everyone is klisyamana, suffering, at least with anxiety. Sada samudvigna, asad-grahat. Tat sadhu manye 'sura-varya dehinam sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat. Everyone in this material world -- always anxiety. Klisyamananam. Therefore it is called... Asmin bhave klisyamananam. Why klisyamananam? Why they are always suffering in anxiety? Avidya-kama-karmabhih. Because they are rascals. Therefore Krsna is giving so much stress: "You rascal, give up all this business. You surrender unto Me," because everyone is rascal. That is Krsna's very good mercy. He's the supreme father. Therefore directly He says that sarva-guhyatama: "This is the most confidential knowledge I am giving you: rascal, you give up everything and simply surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Yes. That is required.

So Kunti says that "You have come to teach rascals like this and engage them in this business: sravana, smarana, arhana." Sravana. Because this is bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. But they are so rascals, as soon as they, the Vaisnavas begin, sravanam kirtanam visnoh, the rascal swami will say, "No, any name, sravana, will do. Any name. Why Visnu? Oh, Kali." You know. In Bengal there is a party, kali-kirtana. What is this nonsense, kali-kirtana? In the sastra there is no such thing as kali-kirtana. Kirtana means sravanam kirtanam visnoh, Visnu-kirtana. But these rascals have discovered because they are very fertile brain and they can discover so many things. Yata mata tata patha: "I have discovered this." What is this? Kali-kirtana, durga-kirtana. So... But sastra does not say. Caitanya Mahaprabhu does not say. Sastra says, harer nama: the holy name of Hari, Krsna, not any other name. Not any other name.

So sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. When there is question of sravanam, arhanam and..., these things are of Visnu. Where is that verse? Yat sravanam yat kirtanam...? So this... Yes. So this sravanam kirtanam has been described by Sukadeva Gosvami in Canto, Second, Chapter Four, very nicely. He says,

yat-kirtanam yat-smaranam yad-iksanam
yad-vandanam yac-chravanam yad-arhanam
lokasya sadyo vidhunoti kalmasam
tasmai subhadra-sravase namo namah

Very nicely explained. Sukadeva Gosvami, before speaking Srimad-Bhagavatam, he's offering his obeisances to Krsna. What is that? "I offer my obeisances," tasmai, "unto Him." Subhadra-sravase: "Simply hearing of Him is subhadra." Not abhadra; subhadra. Subhadra-sravase namo namah. So Sukadeva Gosvami -- yat-kirtanam yat-smaranam. Either you glorify Krsna There are so many glorifications. The whole Bhagavata is glorification. So you have got... This is... This is the glorification by Sukadeva Gosvami: yat-kirtanam yat-smaranam. Either you glorify or simply you meditate upon Him... Yat-smaranam. Yad-iksanam. Simply if you sit down in front of the Deity and go on seeing, bas, do nothing, simply see: "How nicely dressed is Krsna. How nicely dressed is Radharani," simply if you see, it is said, yad-iksanam, yad-iksanam. Sravanam kirtanam. If you have no capacity to chant or if you have no such fixed-up mind -- your mind is so disturbing that you cannot fix up your mind in Krsna -- then the chance is given: "Here is Deity. You simply see. Simply see." And if you are engaged in the service, there is good chance of seeing always, twenty-four hours. While you are cleansing the floor of the temple or the room, you are seeing. You are dressing -- you are seeing. You are bathing -- you are seeing. You are offering food -- you are seeing. This is the process.

So people are so rascal, they do not come even to see. They are so fallen down. They do not come. "Oh, what is this, Deity worship? Idol worship. Idol worship." They will worship Gandhi's statue and this statue, that statue, but when they are asked that "Come here and see the Deity worship nicely," "No, this is idol worship." We... I have seen in Calcutta that Sir Asutosh Mukherjee's statue there is in the Chowrangi square. So in the morning, these ordinary sweepers, they'll cleanse the statue with their brush, because the whole year, the crows have passed stool on the face. So it has become a very solid stool, fixed up. So... I have seen it, brushing like this. This is their arcanam. This is allowed. And if you worship the Deity, bathe the Deity, this is idol worship. And that municipal brush, sweeping brush, and on the face of Sir Asutosh Mukharjee, brushing, that is very good. Just see how much rascal they are! In the morning this business is done. And in the evening all big, big men will come and flower him, garland him, full of garlands. And after evening, they'll go away, and again, next morning, the crows will pass stool. That kind of worship is accepted. And if we install Deity of Krsna and worship Him nicely -- "These are for the fools and rascals, less intelligent." And he's very intelligent. This is going on all over the world. They are worshiping Napoleon. They are worshiping... I have seen in Paris, Napoleon's statue. "France and Napoleon, one." I asked them, "Where is your Napoleon? France is there, but where is your Napoleon?"

So these things are going on all over the world. Why? Now, avidya. The disease is avidya-kama-karmabhih. So people are so much embarrassed with this avidya-kama-karmabhih. And to educate them, to rescue them from these clutches of avidya-kama-karmabhih, is this sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. That is the sum and substance. So that is explained in this verse also by Sukadeva Gosvami, yat-kirtanam yat-smaranam yad-iksanam. Kirtanam smaranam, and if you are unable to do that... Just like these children. They cannot meditate, but simply they sit down and see Krsna: "Here is Krsna. Here is Radharani." That is also... A small child, he also gets the benefit. An animal gets the benefit -- simply by seeing. Yad-vandanam. And if you are still more intelligent, then offer prayer. Either of these: yad-vandanam yac-chravanam yad-arhanam. The similar parallels(?), the arhanam. If you are expert, trained by your spiritual master how to worship, that is arhanam. And sravanam, the same thing. Yad-vandanam, offering prayers. Some way or other...

Therefore I say that the Christians, they're also Vaisnavas; the Muslims, they're also Vaisnava, very, mean, lower stage, because they're offering prayer. Yad-vandanam. They offer prayer: "O God, give us our daily bread." They do not know very much, but the beginning is there. Beginning is there because they have approached... Catur-vidha bhajanti mam sukrtino 'rjuna. That going to the church or going to the mosque, that is also pious activities. One day they'll come out pure Vaisnava, one day. But that beginning is good. But atheism -- "Don't go to church. Don't go to temple. Don't go to mosque" -- this propaganda is very, very dangerous to the human society. Something do... Try to understand. That education, that a child is sent to school. Let him learn simply A,B,C,D. It doesn't matter. So one day, if he's interested, he may become very good scholar. But to give up religion altogether, secular, simply open factory, bolts and nuts, and work hard and drink and take meat... What is this civilization? What is this civilization? Therefore we are suffering. Again bhava.

Here it is said that avidya-kama-karmabhih. By ignorance, they are thinking by opening factories they will be happy. That is avidya. He does not know that this is ignorance. Why you should open factory? That is... This is called ugra-karma. There is no need of opening factory. You have got land. Here are so many lands. You produce your food grains. Annad bhavanti bhutani. You eat sumptuously food grain, milk, and that will be available without any factory. The factory cannot produce milk or food grain. The present scarcity of foodstuff means everybody is engaged in the city, producing bolts and nuts. Who is producing food grain? This is the solution of economic problem. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Therefore we are trying to engage our men to produce their own food. Be self-sufficient so that these rascals may see that how one can live very peacefully, eating the food grains and milk, and chant Hare Krsna. This is our mission. We don't deny this food. They are after daridra-narayana-seva, but why daridra-narayana? Why not chief Narayana, or the rich Narayana? Everyone should be engaged -- Bhagavat-prasadam. We don't make any distinction, daridra-narayana or rich Narayana, dhani-narayana. Everyone, you come on. Take prasadam.

So this process of Krsna consciousness should be very vigorously propagated all over the world. Simply by seeing the Deity, simply by joining Hare Krsna mantra chanting, sravanam kirtanam... Here it is said, yat-kirtanam. The kirtana word is first used. Simply by kirtanam. Yat-kirtanam yat-smaranam. If you perform kirtana, then you'll be able to think of Krsna, that "I have danced two hours, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. What is the meaning?" That is smarana, again smarana, "Krsna." He may think that "Foolishly, I have chanted for two hours, ‘Krsna, Krsna.' " That means again smaranam, Krsna caught up. Then yad-iksanam. So just like people are purchasing our Krsna book. Because Krsna movement is going on, so they are purchasing out of curiosity: "What is this Krsna? Let us see." Yad-iksanam. "Let us see the book." And immediately he will see the picture, Radha-Krsna. Yad-iksanam. And if they open the book, they'll see more. Yad-iksanam. Then there is vandanam. There are so many prayers, glorifying Krsna. Then sravanam. Others will hear. Somebody will read. Then if he's fortunate enough, he'll become Krsna conscious. Yad-arhanam: he'll be engaged in the worshiping of Deity.

So lokasya sadyo vidhunoti kalmasam. These processes, sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam van... [SB 7.5.23], so perfect that as soon as you take them..., not all of them, either all of them or some of them or at least one of them, then what happens? Lokasya sadyo vidhunoti kalmasam tasmai subhadra-sravase namo namah: "I am offering worship to that Supreme Personality of Godhead. Simply by remembering Him, simply by glorifying Him, simply by seeing You, so many things happen." So Sukadeva Gosvami, the authority... He is one of the authorities, Vaiyasaki. Balir vaiyasakih. Out of twelve authorities, Sukadeva Gosvami is authority. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. We have to follow the authority. So he says by..., simply by performing these processes, sravanam kirtanam visnoh, then what you are? Lokasya sadyo vidhunoti kalmasam: "This material contamination will be washed off." Lokasya sadyah. When washed off? Immediately, sir, immediately, no waiting, sadya. This is Krsna consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.35 -- Mayapura, October 15, 1974

Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):

dhrtarastra uvaca
dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre
samaveta yuyutsavah
mamakah pandavas caiva
kim akurvata sanjaya [Bg. 1.1]

Prabhupada: (during chanting of sloka) Now, in your leisure hour you will try to repeat and get by heart some of the slokas. That will be very nice. Go on.

Pradyumna: (after synonyms) "Translation: Dhrtarastra said: O Sanjaya, after assembling in the place of pilgrimage at Kuruksetra, what did my sons and the sons of Pandu do, being desirous to fight?"

Prabhupada: So the history is that same family, there was dispute who would occupy the throne. Dhrtarastra and, actually he was the eldest son of the king, and next was Pandu. So every country the law of primogeniture, what is called? The eldest child... In your country even the eldest child is a girl, she also occupies the throne. Just like present Queen Elizabeth. Formerly there was Queen Victoria; before that, another Elizabeth. But in India woman has no such right. Woman is never given any responsible post. That is the opinion of the greatest politician in the history of the world, Canakya Pandita. According to his opinion, visvaso naiva kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu ca. He has given his explicit opinion that "You cannot trust with any responsible post or any responsibility with a woman and politician." Those who are diplomat, politician, you cannot trust them. So the general regulation is that woman should remain under the protection of husband, er, father, husband and children. Just like these Pandus, their mother, Kunti, she was very, very qualified lady. But still, after the death of her husband, she always remained with the sons. The sons are going to the forest; the mother is also going. Also the wife is also going, Draupadi. This was the... So two parties... Dhrtarastra was the eldest son, but he was blind, bodily defect. Therefore he was not awarded the throne. His next brother, Pandu, he was offered the throne, but he died very early age, a young man. When these Pandus, the five sons, Yudhisthira Maharaja, at at that time not Maharaja, Yudhisthira, Bhima, Arjuna, Nakula, Sahadeva, they were very small children, so they were taken care of by Dhrtarastra and other elderly family... Bhismadeva. He was the grandfather of the Pandavas. He was the elder uncle of Dhrtarastra. Bhisma was elder brother of Dhrtarastra's father. He was so old. But he was... Actually, the kingdom belonged to Bhisma, but he remained a brahmacari, he did not marry. There was no issue of Bhismadeva. Therefore his nephews, Dhrtarastra and Pandu, they were inheritor.

Now, after the death of Pandu, there was conspiracy. Dhrtarastra wanted that "Actually, this is my kingdom. Now, somehow or other, I could not get it. Now my brother is dead. So if I do not inherit, why not my sons.?" This was the politics. Politics are always there, and enviousness, jealousy. This is the nature of this material world. You cannot avoid it. Spiritual world means just the opposite. There is no politics. There is no jealousy. There is no enviousness. That is spiritual world. And material world means politics, jealousy, diplomacy, enviousness, so many things. This is material world. So even in the heavenly planets, these things are there, politics. Even in animal kingdom, these politics are there. This is the nature. Matsarata. Matsarata means enviousness. One man is envious of another man. It doesn't matter, even they are brothers or family members. Here the family members, Dhrtarastra and Pandu, two brothers, their sons, they were family members, but the enviousness...

So the Krsna consciousness movement is not for the persons who are envious. Envious. It is a movement to train people how to become not envious. It is very first-class scientific movement, yes. Not to become envious. Therefore Srimad-Bhagavatam in the beginning introduces, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2]. In this Srimad-Bhagavatam, dharma, religious principles, cheating type of religious principle is completely eradicated, thrown away, projjhita. They are kicked out, projjhita. Just like you collect all the dirty things from the room, sweeping and then kick out, don't keep it within the room. Similarly, cheating type of religious system -- kicked out. It is not such religion, "this religion," "that religion." Any religion system, if there is jealousy, that is not religion. Jealousy means... We should understand jealousy, what is jealousy. Jealousy means that you are rightful owner of something; I won't allow you to take it. This is jealousy. This is jealousy. Jealousy, try to understand. Suppose you are rightful owner of something, and I am trying that "You don't own it. I shall own it. Or somebody own it. I shall not allow it." This is jealousy.

So what is the rightful ownership of the living entity? That is to be understood. Birthright, what is called birthright. Just like everyone has got right to live under the protection of the government, everyone. That is good government. Government should give security of life and property. That is government. Not only for the human being, but even for the ant. This is government. Not that I give protection to my brother, and not to others. That is not... Just like Pariksit Maharaja, he was giving protection to the animals also. When he was on his tour, as soon as he saw that a black man was trying to kill one cow, oh, immediately he took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying to kill?"

So this is good government. Unless the government is equal to everyone... Just like God is equal to everyone. The king or the government must be representative of God. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, king is offered as good respect as to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. King is called nara-deva, nara-deva. That means "God in human form." King is given... Why? Because he acts as the representative of God. He cannot be jealous to any living entity, at least, born in his kingdom. That is called praja. Praja means one who has taken birth, or, in other words, national, national. So that was the duty.

So formerly, when there was fight between two kings, it is on the principle that who is giving good protection to the citizens, not for personal profit. Who is able to give good protection, life, security for life and property, he should become king. So these persons, this Dhrtarastra and his sons, they were jealous. How they could give protection to the citizens? They are themselves jealous. Just like nowadays, all these politicians, they are jealous. They cannot give any protection to the citizens. They are simply interested with their party politics. They have no time even to think how to give nice protection to the citizens so that they may feel happy always that "We have got good government. There is no cause of anxiety. We have got sufficient food, sufficient protection, sufficient opulence, everything sufficient." That is good government.

So here, Dhrtarastra, he is jealous. He cannot give any good government. Krsna knew it. Krsna sent a messenger, Akrura. You have read in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Before this Battle of Kuruksetra from Dvaraka, He sent his uncle Akrura: "Just go to Hastinapura, New Delhi, and see what is the situation." So Akrura understood that Dhrtarastra was planning something. So he talked with him that "Why you are implicated in such planning? Krsna does not want it." Although Dhrtarastra knew that Krsna was the Supreme Personality of Godhead... So Dhrtarastra said that "I know that what I am planning, that is not good. I know Krsna -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He has requested me. But I tell you frankly, I cannot do without it. So when Krsna will be pleased upon me, I may be."

So this is the position of the materialistic person. A materialistic person knows that he is sinful. A materialistic person knows that whatever he is doing is wrong, but he cannot check. Just like the thief. A thief knows that if he commits stealing, he will be arrested, he will be punished. He knows. Because he heard from lawbooks, from other sources, and he has also seen that a thief is arrested and he is taken by the police for being punished. So we have got two kinds of experiences: by hearing and by seeing directly. In Bengali it is called, dekha-suna. In India it is called. The two kinds of experience: one by seeing, practically experiencing, hand to hand; another by hearing. So one who is intelligent, he gets his experience simply by hearing from the right source. That is nice.

So our process is that we are getting experience about the perfect knowledge, the destination of life, simply by hearing from Krsna. So we are the most intelligent person. It is not possible to experience directly, but if one has got intelligence, then simply by hearing and considering and thinking over it, he gets the experience. So those who are very sinful, they get experience by hearing and by direct, directly seeing also; still, they cannot check from sinful activities. So Dhrtarastra, Dhrtarastra, by his sinful activities he became so much fallen that he did not hear anybody's advice, Vidura's advice, Bhisma's advice, that "Don't plan like this. They are rightful owners. The Pandavas, they are rightful owners. They are minor, but don't try to cheat them." But Dhrtarastra was...

So when the planning was complete and the warfield was set up at dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1]. Dharma-ksetre means, kuru-ksetre, that place is a pilgrimage. People still go to observe religious ritualistic performances. And in the Vedas there is injunction, kuru-ksetre dharmam acaret: "If you want to perform some ritualistic ceremonies, religious, then go to Kuruksetra." So Kuruksetra is a dharma-ksetra. It is a not fictitious thing, just like rascal commentators, so-called, they say, "Kuruksetra means this body." It is not that. As it is. Try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is. Kuruksetra, dharma-ksetra. It is a place of religion. And especially when Krsna was present there, it is already. Why this house? Before our occupation, why this house was an ordinary house? Now it is temple. It is dharma-ksetra, it is a religious place. Why? Because Krsna is there. Krsna is there. So either you take Kuruksetra, ordinary place. But because in the battlefield Krsna was there directing Arjuna. So it is already dharma-ksetra. So formerly people were religiously trained up. So they could not speak lies in a dharma-ksetra. That is still the practice. Just like in the western world, the Christians go to the church, they admit, confession, "Yes, I have done it." But that has become a formality. But actually, one should admit in religious place that "Yes, I have done this." But that does not mean you admit and again do it. No. You admit once, then you are excused. But don't do it again. So here Dhrtarastra says, samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. "All these people, my sons, mamakah..." Mamakah. That means "my sons," and pandava, "my brother Pandu's sons." Samaveta, "they assembled." What is the purpose? The purpose is yuyutsavah. This word yuyutsu is still used in Japan. Perhaps you know, yuyutsa, fighting. So yuyutsu, those who are desirous of fighting. Now, both the parties were desiring to fight, and they assembled. Why he is asking question, kim akurvata: "What did they do"? Because he was little doubtful that "These boys, after being assembled in dharma-ksetra kuru-kse..., they might have changed their ideas. They might have settled up." Actually, the sons of Dhrtarastra might have admitted, "Yes, Pandavas, you are actually the owner. What is the use of unnecessarily fighting?" So he was very much anxious whether they had changed their decision. Therefore he is asking. Otherwise there was no question of asking, kim akurvata. He... Just like if you are given food, if I ask somebody that "Such and such gentleman was served with nice dishes. Then what did he do?" This is foolish question. He would eat. That's all. (laughter) What is the question of "What did he do?" Similarly, when it is already settled up that they were to fight, there was no such question as kim akurvata, "What did they do?" But he asked this question because he was doubtful whether they had changed their opinion.

Kim akurvata sanjaya [Bg. 1.1]. He was asking his secretary. He was blind man. He was always conducted by his secretary Sanjaya, a very faithful secretary. And he is explaining the Bhagavad-gita by experiencing, by television within the heart. That art is not yet developed. You have got television through machine, but there is another television -- you can see within your heart everything, what is going on outside. So that television was known to... That will be explained by Sanjaya, that by the grace of Vyasadeva, he learned this televisioning, and he was sitting with his master within the room and he was actually seeing how the fighting is going on. And he was explaining. This is the basic principle of Bhagavad-gita, I mean, the basic platform. So let us discuss gradually, one after an... Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. [break]

...leader to Bhagavad-gita and became a sadhu, mahatma, but when they found that a mahatma is leader and he is a great student of Bhagavad-gita, and by the way all people gathered round him. Although he was a politician, he has nothing to do with Bhagavad-gita or mahatma, no. (laughter) Because the definition of mahatma is given in the Bhagavad-gita. The definition of mahatma is there: mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah, bhajanty ananya manaso [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahatma. Mahatma means he has taken shelter of Krsna cent percent, and his only business is to worship and glorify Krsna. That is mahatma. So Gandhi never believed that there was Krsna, but he became mahatma by popular vote. That's all. That kind of mahatma is not accepted by the sastra. Mahatma is, first symptom of mahatma is that he must be a great devotee of Krsna. That is mahatma. That is.... Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [Bg. 9.13]. And he is not under any material world. He is in the spiritual world. Daivim prakrtim asritah. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso. Ananya-manaso, without any diversion, he's simply devoted to Krsna. This is mahatma. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita, therefore I request you to study Bhagavad-gita thoroughly as it is. Then you become perfectly powerful, spiritual. Now chant Hare Krsna. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 1.1 -- London, July 7, 1973

Prabhupada: Read. Hare Krsna. Yes, Second Chapter

Devotee: Start at verse 8. "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not even be able to destroy it if I win an unrivaled kingdom on the earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven [Bg. 2.8]. Sanjaya said: Having spoken thus, Arjuna, chastiser of the enemy told Krsna, Govinda, ‘I shall not fight,' and fell silent [Bg. 2.9]. O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krsna, smiling in the midst of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken Arjuna [Bg. 2.10]. The Blessed Lord said..."

Prabhupada: So when we become very serious in a dangerous position, as if we are lost, but Krsna smiles. You see? Sometimes we think... This is called illusion. The same example, just a man in dreaming, crying, "There is tiger, there is tiger. It is eating me," and the man who is awakened, he smiles, "Where is the tiger?" (chuckles) "Where is the tiger?" And this man is crying, "Tiger, tiger, tiger." Similarly, when we are very much perplexed... Just like the politicians, they are sometimes perplexed in political situation and claiming, "This is my land, my country," and other party also claiming, "It is my land, my country," and they are fighting very gravely. Krsna smiles. "What these nonsense are claiming ‘my country, my land'? It is My land, and they are claiming ‘my land' and fighting." Actually, the land belongs to Krsna, but these people, under illusion, claiming, "It is my land, it is my country," forgetting how long he shall belong to this country or this nation. That is called illusion.

So this is our position. Without understanding our real position we are perplexed with these all worldly problems, which are all false. Janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Moha, moha means illusion. This is the illusion. So everyone is under this illusion. So one who is intelligent, if he can understand that this worldly position is simply illusion... The, all the thoughts which I have concocted, based on the principle of "I" and "mine," this is all illusion. So one, when one is intelligent to get out of the illusion, he surrenders to a spiritual master. That is being exemplified by Arjuna. When he's too much perplexed... He was talking with Krsna as friend, but he saw that "This friendly talking will not solve my question." And he selected Krsna... Because he knew the value of Krsna. At least, he ought to have known. He is friend. And he knows that Krsna is accepted... "Although He is acting as my friend, but by great authorities Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That was known to Arjuna. So he said that "I'm so much puzzled that I cannot understand. Even accepting that I shall be victorious in this battle, still I shall not be happy. What to speak of being victorious on this planet, if I become the king of all other planets or if I become a demigod in the higher planetary system, still this distress cannot be mitigated." You see?

Devotee: Verse 11: "The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead [Bg. 2.11]." Purport: "The Lord at once took the position of a teacher and chastised his student, calling him indirectly a fool. The Lord said, ‘You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned, one who knows what is body and what is soul, does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.' As explained in the later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is more important than religious formularies. And because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man. As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow. Therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned. For him there is no cause for lamentation in any stage of the material body."

Prabhupada: He says, Krsna says, that "This body, either dead or alive, has nothing to be lamented." Dead body, suppose when the body is dead, it has no value. What is the use of lamenting? You can lament for many thousands of years, it will not come to life. So there is no cause of lamenting on dead body. And so far spirit soul is concerned, that is eternal. Even it appears to be dead, or with the death of this body, he does not die. So why one should be overwhelmed, "Oh, my father is dead, my such and such relative is dead," and crying? He's not dead. This knowledge one must have. Then he'll be cheerful in all cases and he'll be interested simply in Krsna consciousness. There is nothing to be lamented for the body, either alive or dead. That is being instructed by Krsna in this chapter. Go on.

Devotee: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings. Nor in the future shall any of us cease to be [Bg. 2.12]." Purport: "In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad, as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that..."

Prabhupada: (correcting pronunciation) Svetasvatara. There are many Upanisads, they are called Vedas. Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. Just like in a chapter there is a headline, similarly these Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. There are 108 Upanisads, principal. Out of that, nine Upanisads are very important. So out of those nine Upanisads, Svetasvatara Upanisad, Taittireya Upanisad, Aitareya Upanisad, Isopanisad, Isa Upanisad, Mundaka Upanisad, Mandukya Upanisad, Kathopanisad, these Upanisads are very important. And whenever there is argument on some point, one has to give reference from these Upanisads. If one can give reference from the Upanisads, then his argument is very strong. Sabda-pramana. Pramana means evidence. Evidence... If you want to gain in your case... Just like you have to give very nice evidence in a court, similarly, according to Vedic culture, the evidence is pramana. Pramana means evidence. Sabda-pramana. There are three kinds of evidences accepted by the learned scholars in Vedic culture. One evidence is pratyaksa. Pratyaksa means direct perception. Just like I am seeing you, you are seeing me. I am present, you are present. This is direct perception. And there is another evidence which is called anumana. Suppose in that room, and I am coming just now, I do not know whether any person there is or not. But there is some sound, I can imagine, "Oh, there is somebody." This is called anumana. In logic it is called hypothesis. That is also evidence. If by my bona fide suggestions I can give evidence, that is also accepted. So direct evidence, and, what is called, hypothesis or suggestion evidence. But the strong evidence is sabda-pramana. Sabda, sabda-brahman. That means Vedas. If one can give evidence from the quotation of the Vedas, then it has to be accepted. Nobody can deny the Vedic evidence. That is the system. How it is so? Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given very nice example. That is in the Vedas. Just like we keep conchshell in the Deities' room. Conchshell is considered very pure, transcendental; otherwise, how we can keep before Deity and you blow conchshell? You offer water with conchshell. How you can offer? But what is this conchshell? The conchshell is the bone of an animal. It is nothing but bone of an animal. But the Vedic injunction is that if you touch the bone of an animal, you'll have to take bath immediately. You become impure. Now one may say, "Oh, this is contradiction. In one place it is said that if you touch the bone of an animal, then you have to purify yourself by taking bath immediately, and here, the bone of an animal is in the Deities' room. So it is contradiction, is it not? If bone of an animal is impure, how you can place it in the Deities' room? And if bone of an animal is pure, then what is the meaning of becoming impure and take bath?" You'll find similar contradiction in the Vedic injunctions. But because it is said by the Vedas that bone of an animal is impure, you have to accept. But this bone of an animal, conchshell, is pure. Just like sometimes our students are perplexed when we say that onion is not to be taken, but onion is a vegetable. So sabda-pramana means the Vedic evidence should be taken in such a way that no argument. There is meaning; there is no contradiction. There is meaning. Just like several times I have told you that cow dung. Cow dung is, according to Vedic injunction, is pure. In India it is actually used as antiseptic. In villages especially, there is large quantity of cow dung, and they're, all over the house they have smeared to make the house antiseptic. And actually after smearing cow dung in your room, when it is dried, you'll find refreshed, everything antiseptic. It is practical experience. And one Dr. Ghosh, a great chemist, he examined cow dung, that why cow dung is so much important in the Vedic literature? He found that cow dung contains all the antiseptic properties. In Ayur-veda, cow dung dried and burned into ashes is used as toothpowder. It is very antiseptic toothpowder. Similarly, there are many things, many injunctions in the Vedas, which may apparently appear as contradiction, but they are not contradiction. They are on experience, on transcendental experience. Just like a father says to his child that "My dear child, you take this food. It is very nice." And the child takes it, believing the father, authority. The child knows that "My father..." He is confident that "My father will never give me anything which is poison." Therefore he accepts it blindly, without any reason, without any analysis of the food, whether it is pure or impure. You have to believe in such a way. You go to a hotel because it is licensed by the government. You have to believe when you take foodstuff there it is nice, it is pure, or it is antiseptic, or it is... But how do you know it? The authority. Because this hotel is authorized by the government, it has got license, therefore you believe. Similarly sabda-pramana means as soon as there is evidence in the Vedic literature, "This is this," you have to accept. That's all. Then your knowledge is perfect because you are accepting things from the perfect source. Similarly Krsna, Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says, it is all right. Accept. Arjuna said at last, sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14]. "My dear Krsna, whatever You say I accept it." That should be our principle. Why should we bother about researching when the evidence is there from the authority?

So to save time, to save trouble one has to accept the authority, actual authority. This is the Vedic process. And therefore Veda says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad vijnanartham, in order to learn that transcendental science, one has to accept guru. Gurum eva, certainly, one must. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore Krsna is accepted here as the spiritual master of Arjuna, and as the spiritual master or father or teacher has got right to chastise his son or disciple... A son is never dissatisfied when father chastises. That is the etiquette everywhere. Even the father is sometimes violent, the child or the son tolerates. A typical example is Prahlada Maharaja. Innocent child, Krsna consciousness child, but father torturing. He never says anything. "All right." Similarly Krsna, just after taking the position of the spiritual master, is designating Arjuna as a grand fool. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu also said that "My spiritual master found Me a great fool." Was Caitanya Mahaprabhu a fool? And can it be possible that anyone can become the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Both things are impossible. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even not accepting Him as incarnation of Krsna, if simply you accept Him as ordinary scholar or man, there was no comparison of His scholarship. But He said that "My spiritual master found Me a great fool." What is that meaning? That "A person, even in My position, always remains a fool before his spiritual master. That is good for him." Nobody should impose that "What do you know? I know better than you." This position is not, denied. And other point is, from the disciple's point of view, why he should remain always a fool before a person? Unless he's actually authorized, actually so great that he can teach me as a fool. One should select a spiritual master in that way and as soon as the spiritual master is selected, one should remain always a fool, although he may not be a fool, but the better position is like that. So Arjuna, instead of remaining on the same level as friend and friend, voluntarily accepting to remain a fool before Krsna. And Krsna is accepting that "You are a fool. You're talking just like a learned man, but you are a fool because you are lamenting on a matter which no learned man laments." That means "A fool laments," that "You are a fool. Therefore you are a fool." It is in a round about way... Just like, what is called in logic? Parenthesis? Or something like that, called. Yes. That if I say that "You look like that person who stole my watch," that means "You look like a thief." Similarly, (chuckles) Krsna, in a round about way, says that "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like learned man, but you are lamenting on a subject matter which no learned man laments." Go on.

Devotee: "In the Svetasvatara Upanisad it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities, in terms of their different situations according to individual work and reaction to work. That Supreme Personality of Godhead is also, by His plenary portions, alive in the heart of every living entity. Only saintly persons, who can see within and without the same Supreme Personality of Godhead, can actually attain to perfect peace eternal. The same Vedic truth enumerated herein is given to Arjuna and in that connection to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have very poor fund of knowledge. The Lord says clearly that He Himself, Arjuna, and all the kings who are assembled in the battlefield are eternally individual beings and that the Lord is eternally the maintainer of the individual living entities."

Prabhupada: What is the original verse? You read.

Devotee: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings... [Bg. 2.12]"

Prabhupada: Now, "Never there was a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor these people." Now He analytically says, "I, you, and..." first person, second person, and third person. That is complete. "I, you, and others." So Krsna says, "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons who have assembled in this battlefield did not exist." That means "In the past, I, you, and all of them, they individually existed." Individually. The Mayavadi theory is that the ultimate spirit is impersonal. Then how Krsna can say that "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons never existed"? That means, "I existed as individual, you existed as individual, and all these persons who are before us, they existed as individuals. Never there was a time." Now, what is your answer, Dinadayala? Krsna says never we were mixed up. We are all individuals. And He says, "Never we shall remain... Never there will be time when we shall not exist." That means in the past we existed as individuals, in the present there is no doubt we are existing as individual, and in the future also, we shall continue to remain as individuals. Then when the impersonal conception comes at all? In the past, present, future, there are three times. Huh? In all the times we are individuals. Then when God becomes impersonal or I become impersonal or you become impersonal? Where is the chance? Krsna clearly says, "There was never time when I, you, and all these individual kings or soldiers... It was not that we did not exist in the past." So in the past we existed as individual, and in the present there is no doubt. We are existing as individual. You are my disciple, I am your spiritual master, but you have got your individuality, I have got my individuality. If you don't agree with me, you can leave me. That is your individuality. So if you don't like Krsna, you cannot become in Krsna consciousness, that is your individuality. So this individuality continues. Similarly Krsna, if He does not like you, He may refuse you Krsna consciousness. Not that because you are following all the rules and regulations, Krsna is obliged to accept you. No. If He thinks that "He's nonsense; I cannot accept him," He'll reject you.

So He has got individuality, you have got individuality, everyone has got individuality. Where is the question of impersonalism come? There is no possibility. And if you don't believe Krsna, you don't believe Vedas, apart from anything else, Krsna is accepted as the supreme authority, the Personality of Godhead. Then if we don't believe Him, then where is the possibility of advancing in knowledge? There is no possibility of it. So there is no question of individuality. This is the statement of authority. Now, apart from statement of authority, you have to apply your reason and arguments. Can you say anywhere there is agreement between two parties? No. You go, study. In the state, in the family, in the community, in the nation, there is no agreement. Even in the assembly, even in your country. Suppose there is Senate, everyone has got country's interest, but he's thinking in his individual way. One is thinking that "My country's welfare will be in this line." Otherwise, why there is competition during election of president. Everyone is saying that "America needs Nixon." And another person, he also says, "America needs me." So, but why two? If America you, and you are both... No. There is individuality. Mr. Nixon's opinion is something else. Mr. another candidate's opinion is something else. In the assembly, in the Senate, in the Congress, in the United Nations, everyone is fighting with his individual view. Otherwise why there are so many flags in the world? You cannot say anywhere impersonalism. Personality is predominating everywhere. Everywhere, the personality, individuality, is predominant. So we have to accept. We have to apply our reason, arguments, and accept the authority. Then the question is solved. Otherwise it is most difficult.

Devotee: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Individual Person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain as eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore there is no cause for lamentation for any one of the individual living entities. The Mayavadi or impersonal theory that after liberation the individual soul, separate on account of maya or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman without individual existence..."

Prabhupada: Now, the Mayavadi says that this individuality is maya. So their conception is that spirit, the whole spirit is a lump. Their theory is ghatakasa potakasa. Ghatakasa potakasa means... Just like sky. The sky is an expansion, impersonal expansion. So in a pot, in a waterpot, in a pitcher that is closed... Now, within the pitcher, there is also sky, a small sky. Now as soon as the pitcher is broken, the outside, the bigger sky, and the small sky within the pitcher mixes. That is Mayavada theory. But this analogy cannot be applied. Analogy means points of similarity. That is the law of analogy. The sky cannot be compared... The small sky within the pitcher cannot be compared with the living entity. It is material, matter. Sky is matter, and individual living entity is spirit. So how you can say? Just like a small ant, it is spirit soul. It has got its individuality. But a big dead stone, hill or mountain, it has no individuality. So matter has no individuality. Spirit has individuality. So if the points of similarity differ, then there is no analogy. That is the law of analogy. So you cannot analogize with matter and spirit. Therefore this analogy is fallacious. Ghatakasa potakasa. Then another evidence is in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhuta. "This individual souls, they are My part and parcel." Jiva-loke sanatanah. And they are eternal. That means eternally they are part and parcel. Then when... How this Mayavada theory can be supported, that due to maya, being covered by maya, they are now appearing individual, separate, but when the covering of maya will be taken away, they will mix up just like the small sky within the pitcher and the big sky outside mixes? So this analogy is fallacious from logical point of view, as well as from authentic Vedic point of view. They are eternally fragments. There are many other evidences from Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says that spirit cannot be fragmented. So if you say that by covering of maya the spirit has become fragment, that is not possible. It cannot be cut. Just like if you cut one big piece of paper into small fragments, it is possible because it is matter, but spiritually it is not possible. Spiritually, eternally, the fragments are fragments, and the Supreme is Supreme. Krsna is the Supreme, and we are fragmental parts. We are fragments eternally. These things are explained in Bhagavad-gita in different places very nicely. I request you all to keep one copy of this Bhagavad-gita, every one of you, and read it carefully. And there will be examination in the coming September. So... Of course, that is voluntary. But I request you to prepare for the examination next September. And one who will pass the examination will get the title Bhakti-sastri. Have you distributed that... Yes. Go on.

Devotee: "Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others as it is..."

Prabhupada: Krsna never says that after liberation these individual souls will mix up with the Supreme Soul. Krsna never says in the Bhagavad-gita.

Devotee: "Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upanisads, will continue eternally. This statement of Krsna is authoritative."

Prabhupada: Yes, Upanisad says nityo nityanam. Now, nitya means eternal, and the Supreme Lord is the supreme eternal, and we individual souls, we are also many eternals. So He is the leader eternal. Eko bahunam... How He is leader? Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That one, singular number eternal, person, He is supplying all the needs of other eternals. These things are clearly said in the Vedas. And actually we are experiencing. Just like in Christian theology, the individual goes to the church and prays God, "Give us our daily bread." Why he's asking God? Of course, this atheist class of men are now teaching them, "Where is bread? You are going to church. You come to us; we shall supply you bread." So this Vedic thought is there also. The Vedas say, eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That supreme one eternal, He's supplying, He's maintaining all other individual eternals. And Bible also enjoins that "You go, ask for your bread to God." So unless God is maintainer and supplier, why this injunction is there? Therefore He is the leader; He is the maintainer. And the Vedas clearly says this is the position. He is the Supreme. And by knowing this one can become in peace. That is the Vedic injunction. Go on.

Devotee: "This statement of Krsna is authoritative because Krsna cannot be subject to illusion. If individuality..."

Prabhupada: Yes. If the Mayavadi philosopher says that this statement of Krsna is in maya, that "He says that ‘Everyone was individual in the past.' No, in the past everyone was one, lump sum, homogeneous. By maya, we have become individual." If the Mayavadi says like that, then Krsna becomes one of the conditioned souls. He does not... He loses His authority. Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute. So Krsna is accepted as the Absolute. So if the Mayavadi theory is accepted, then Krsna's theory has to be rejected. If Krsna is rejected, then there is no need of reading Krsna's book, Bhagavad-gita. It is useless, waste of time. If He's a conditioned soul like us... Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Krsna's side. So unless... The Vedic principle is that unless one is not liberated from the material conditions, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. The conditioned soul, however he may be academically advanced, educated, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. Only one who is above the condition of these material laws, he can give us the perfect knowledge. Similarly Sankaracarya, he's also impersonalist, but he accepts Krsna the supreme authority. Sa bhagavan svayam krsna. "Krsna is that Supreme Personality of Godhead." The modern Mayavadi philosophers, they do not disclose this statement of Sankaracarya. To cheat people. But Sankaracarya's statement is there. We can give evidence. He accepts Krsna as the supreme authority. He has written so many nice poems praising or worshiping Krsna. And at the last time he says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. "You rascal fools. Oh, you are depending on grammar to understand. This is all nonsense." Bhaja govindam. "Just worship Govinda." Bhaja govindam bhaja... Three times he says. "Just worship Govinda." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says three times, harer nama harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Three times means giving too much stress. Just like we sometimes say, "You do this, do this, do this." That means no more denial. Finish all stress. So as soon as one thing is three times stressed, that means final. So Sankaracarya says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. Mudha, mudha I've several times explained. Mudha means rascal, ass. You are depending on your grammatical understanding, dukrn karane. Dukrn, these are grammatical affix and prefix, pratya, prakarana. So you are depending on this verbal root, that verbal root, and creating, interpreting your meaning in a different way. All this is nonsense. This dukrn karane, your grammatical jugglery of words, will not save you at the time of death. You rascal, you just worship Govinda, Govinda, Govinda. That is the instruction of Sankaracarya also. Because he was a devotee, he was a great devotee. But he pretended to be an atheist because he was to deal with the atheists. Unless he presents himself as an atheist, the atheist followers will not hear him. Therefore he presented Mayavada philosophy for the time being. The Mayavada philosophy cannot be accepted eternally. The eternal philosophy is Bhagavad-gita. That is the verdict. Go on.

Devotee: "If individuality is not a fact, then Krsna would not have stressed it so much even for the future."

Prabhupada: Yes. He says that there was no such time when we are not individual, and there will be no such time in the future when we shall not remain individual. And so far present is concerned, we are all individual. You know. So where is the possibility of losing individuality? Become imperson? No. There is no possibility. This voidism, impersonalism, they are artificial ways of negating the perplexing variegatedness of this material existence. That is the negative side only. That is not a positive side. A positive side is that, as Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. "After giving up this material tabernacle, one comes to Me." Just like after leaving this room, you have to enter another room. You cannot say that "After leaving this room, I shall live in the sky." Similarly, after leaving this body, if you go to Krsna in the spiritual kingdom, your individuality will be there, but you'll have that spiritual body. When there is spiritual body there is no perplexities. Just like your body is different from the body of the aquatics. The aquatics, they have no disturbance in the water because their body is made like that. They can live there peacefully. You cannot live. Similarly, the fishes, if you take them out of the water, they cannot live. Similarly, because you are spirit soul, you cannot live peacefully in this material world. This is foreign. But as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, your life is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, real peace. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Krsna says, "After leaving this body, he does not come to this perplexities of material world." Mam eti, "He comes to Me." "Me" means His kingdom, His paraphernalia, His associates, everything. If some rich man or some king says, "All right, you come to me," that does not mean that he's impersonal. If a king says, "Come to..." means that he has got his palace, he has got his secretary, he has got his nice apartment, everything is there. How he can be imperson? But he says only, "Come to me." This "me" means everything. This "me" does not mean impersonal. And we get information from Brahma-samhita, laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. So He's not impersonal. He's raising cows, He's with hundreds and thousands of goddesses of fortune, His friends, His paraphernalia, His kingdom, His house, everything is there. So there is no question of impersonalism. Yes.

Devotee: "The Mayavadi may argue that the individuality spoken of by Krsna is not spiritual but material. Even accepting the argument that the individuality is material, how can one distinguish Krsna's individuality?"

Prabhupada: They also think of Krsna, therefore, as material. That is also condemned by Krsna. You'll find, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. "Because I have appeared just like a human being, these rascals deride at Me that I am also one of them." Mudha. Mudha means rascal. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Krsna. Krsna... It is the soul within the Krsna." That means he identifies Krsna as one of us. His body and His soul different. But Krsna is not... Krsna said, sambhavamy atma-mayaya [Bg. 4.6]. "I appear in My own, original stature. I do not change." We change. The individual soul... Prakrteh kriyamanani. He's conducted by, influenced by this prakrti, nature, but He's not conducted or influenced by the nature. He comes in His own influence, as He is, atma-mayaya. This is the distinction. Therefore He does not change body. When I come, I change bodies. This time I may have this body; next time I may have another body. That is material, and therefore I forget. Just like Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter that "Many times you and I came. You have forgotten." Because we change our material body therefore we forget. These things all will be explained. Go on.

Devotee: "Krsna affirms His individuality in the past and confirms His individuality in the future also. He has confirmed His individuality in many ways, and impersonal Brahman has been declared as subordinate to Him. Krsna has maintained spiritual individuality all along, and if He is accepted as an ordinary conditioned soul in individual consciousness, then His Bhagavad-gita has no value as authoritative scripture. A common man with all the defects of human frailty is unable to teach that which is worth hearing. Bhagavad-gita is above such literature. No mundane book compares with the Bhagavad-gita. When one accepts Krsna as an ordinary man, the Bhagavad-gita loses all importance. The Mayavadi argues that the plurality mentioned in this verse is conventional and that the plurality thus refers to the body. But previous to this verse such a bodily conception has already been condemned. After condemning the bodily conception of living entities, how was it possible for Krsna to place a conventional proposition on the body again? Therefore, the plurality is on spiritual grounds as is confirmed by great teachers like Sri Ramanuja. It is clearly mentioned in many places in the Bhagavad-gita that this spiritual plurality is understood by those who are devotees of the Lord. Those who are envious of Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead have no bona fide access to the great literature. The nondevotee's approach to the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita is something like a bee licking on a bottle of honey. One cannot have a taste of honey unless one can taste within the bottle. Similarly, the mysticism of the Bhagavad-gita can be understood only by devotees. No one else can taste it, as is stated in the Fourth Chapter of the book. Nor can the Gita be touched by persons who envy the very existence of the Lord. Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis."

Prabhupada: Yes. Lord Caitanya has clearly said, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. One meets disaster if he hears a Mayavadi philosopher to understand Vedic literature. That is His injunction. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. Sarva-nasa means disaster. It is actually disaster. A mayavadi-bhasya, Mayavadi commentary, they have simply tried, (that) the individual, tiny individual spiritual spark that "You are the Supreme." So he's just (like) Dr. Frog. You see. So puffed up, puffed up, when he... At one time, it will burst. Therefore it is disastrous. It is disastrous. (chuckling) Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. So that's all. Finished? Yes. Oh, not yet?

Devotee: "Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis and warns that one who takes to understanding of the Mayavadi philosophy loses all power to understand the real mystery of the Gita. If individuality refers to the empirical universe, then there is no need for teachings of the Lord. The plurality of the individual souls and of the Lord is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed by the Vedas as above mentioned."

Prabhupada: So you read very carefully Bhagavad-gita. You have to meet so many opposing elements; so you have to argue and convince them. Hm. (sankirtana party enters and offers obeisances) So, what is your report?

Tamala Krsna: Yesterday we sold 125 magazines and collected twenty dollars. Today, so far, Junior Dave(?), he has sold... How many have you sold today?

Junior Dave: Eighty-five.

Tamala Krsna: Eighty-five today so far.

Prabhupada: And there is night.

Tamala Krsna: Tonight, we will go out tonight.

Virabhadra(?): I have a question. In about the middle of your lecture you said that Krsna said that everybody always lived on. I lived on, you lived on, and everybody here lived on. Does that means us in this room lived on too? We always lived?

Prabhupada: What do you think?

Virabhadra: I don't know.

Prabhupada: Yes. "All" means including all men of this room also. You also.

Virabhadra: I lived on?

Prabhupada: Yes. You lived in the past, you are living at present, you will live in the future also. Is that all right?

Virabhadra: I understand that.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee: I read somewhere in your writings that in order to understand the confidential affairs of Radha and Krsna one must serve the gopis who are servants of the gopis, and I assumed that you were a servant of the gopis. Is that correct? Or... How do I serve the servants of the gopis?

Prabhupada: Gopis, they are not conditioned souls. They are liberated spirits. So first of all you have to come out from this conditioned life. Then the question of serving gopi will come. Don't be at the present moment, very eager to serve gopi. Just try to get out of your conditional life. Then time will come when you'll be able to serve gopi. In this conditional stage we cannot serve anything. Krsna is performing it (everything?). But Krsna gives us opportunities to accept service in this arca-marga. Just like we keep the Deity of Krsna, offer prasada under regulation, under principle. So we have to make advance in this way, this chanting, hearing, and worshiping in the temple, arati, offering prasada. In this way, as we make advance, then automatically Krsna will reveal to you and you'll understand your position, how you have to... Gopis means who are always, constantly engaged in the service of the Lord. So that eternal relationship will be revealed. So we have to wait for that. Immediately we cannot imitate serving gopis. That's a good idea that you shall serve gopi, but it will take time. Not immediately. Immediately we have to follow the rules and regulations and routine work. Yes.

Visnujana: Do the liberated souls also seek after this Krsna consciousness? Those who have become free...

Prabhupada: They become perfect in Krsna consciousness. Liberated soul means... We are just trying to be Krsna conscious. We are not actually in full Krsna consciousness. We are... Just like a diseased person is trying to recover. So one who is recovered, there is no question of his healthy life. We are trying to be healthy, our present position. So we are trying to be Krsna conscious. So one who is liberated is nothing but Krsna conscious. You follow? Yes. Krsna consciousness is the perfection of life. So we are trying to reach that platform of perfection by regulative principle. But when we are actually on the platform, there is nothing but Krsna consciousness. That is the perfection of life. That is our actual, liberated stage. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is our svarupa. Svarupa means actual constitutional position. And mukti, liberation, means to come to that real position. Just like healthy life means to come to the normal life from the diseased stage. That is healthy life and normal life. So Krsna consciousness is our normal consciousness. This normal consciousness is now polluted. We have got so many other consciousness. So this is an attempt to get out of all, I mean to say, infected consciousness, come to the real stage of pure Krsna consciousness. One question. No more. Next day. Yes?

Devotee: In Srimad-Bhagavatam you have said that... It's stated that Vyasadeva was afraid when Suta Gosvami was born that he would leave home because he was already a liberated soul.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee: It says in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that Vyasadeva was afraid that Suta Gosvami when he was born would leave home because he was already a liberated soul.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: But he was attracted to Krsna's pastimes. So what...?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the sign of liberated soul. Because to become attracted by Krsna, that is our normal condition. So he was liberated; therefore normally he became attracted with Krsna's pastimes. That is his normal life. One who is not attracted by Krsna's pastimes, he will be attracted by President Johnson's pastimes. (laughter) One has to be attracted. One has to be attracted by the dog's pastimes. Don't you see a person how he is serving the dog? The dog stands, passes urine, he also stands. You see? He's a human being, and he is waiting for the dog passing urine. How much he is attending the pastimes of the dog? So if you (are) not attracted by the pastimes of God, then you'll have to be attracted by the pastimes of the dog. There is no other alternative. Either maya or Krsna. The atheist, agnostic, they deny Krsna's pastimes; therefore they remain attracted by the pastimes of this material world. Yes?

Madhudvisa: Prabhupada, I think this is... Did Lord Caitanya take sannyasa from a Mayavadi sannyasi?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is a formality. That is not very important. Because Mayavadi sannyasis, they are also Vedic sannyasis. They are not outsiders. But their interpretation of Veda is different. But they follow the Vedic rules. So this acceptance of sannyasa is following a principle of the Vedic rules. So the Mayavadi sannyasi may differ in his interpretation, but he's following the Vedic rules. So this acceptance of sannyasa is following the Vedic rules. So you can accept sannyasa even from Mayavadi. It doesn't matter. But you have to transcend the limits of Vedic rules. That is Krsna consciousness. That also Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Although He took sannyasa, He did not assume the sannyasa title. His sannyasa guru was Kesava Bharati. Naturally, He would have accepted the Bharati title. Sri Krsna Bharati, or something like that. But He remained Sri Krsna Caitanya. Caitanya is the name of the brahmacari under the Bharati sannyasi. One brahmacari... The brahmacaris, they are assistant or personal servitors of a sannyasi. That is the system. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was... In the beginning, He was accepted... That is the Mayavadi system. One is accepted first of all as brahmacari. So that, His name was Caitanya. But even after His acceptance of sannyasa, He did not assume the title Bharati. That means actually He did not take sannyasa. That was simply formality. Because Mayavadi sannyasi thinks that he is God; so how He can assume that title? He was preaching, He was going to preach that we are servant of God; therefore He did not assume that title. And besides that, when Caitanya Mahaprabhu was going to Lord..., see Jagannatha Puri, His rod was taken away by Nityananda and it was broken and thrown away. So He, apparently He became very angry that "You have broken My rod, sannyasa rod. So I am not going with You." He separated. These statements are there in the Caitanya-caritamrta. So in one sense, Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not require to accept any sannyasa guru, but He accepted the formality that if one takes sannyasa, one has to take sannyasa from another sannyasi. That is the system. Just like if you want to get yourself married, you have to call for a priest. That does not mean that you have to agree with the priest's personal opinion. Do you follow? Yes. He may execute the rules and regulation of marriage ceremony, but that does not mean that one has to agree with the priest's opinion, personal opinion. This is the answer. But when you accept a spiritual master, that is not allowed. Unless you cent percent agree with the spiritual master's opinion or philosophy, there is no need of accepting a spiritual master. There is no need. Yes.

Jaya-gopala: How is Mayadevi in such a distasteful position? How did she acquire her position?

Prabhupada: (S)He's not acquired. She's given that position by Krsna. Because there are many individual souls who will defy Krsna; therefore Mayavadi (Mayadevi) is required to punish them. Mayadevi is required to punish them. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. "It is very difficult to surpass the stringent laws of My maya." So laws..., the maya is not independent. Just like police force. What is the value of police force unless government gives the power? Does it mean... Suppose a Mr. John, he comes as a policeman. He's Mr. John. What power he has got? But because government has given him power, he can arrest you. Similarly, Maya has no powers. Krsna has given her power to chastise these individual souls who are defying the authority of Krsna. They should be punished. It is Maya's thankless task, but Maya is obedient servant of Krsna. Mama maya. He says, "My maya." So Maya is not degraded. Maya is faithful servant of Krsna. She is faithfully serving. That is stated in the Brahma-samhita. You should read. So many nice books you have got. What is Maya doing? That is stated in the Brahma-samhita. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga [Bs. 5.44]. Durga is Maya. Now what is the position of Maya? Maya is so strong, that srsti-sthiti-pralaya. She can perform creation, maintenance, and dissolution of this whole universe. She's so powerful. The material nature is so powerful. So srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhan a-saktir eka. Alone, she can do this as good as Krsna or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva [Bs. 5.44]. But she is just like shadow. Chayeva yasya. Chayeva yasya... She is working just like shadow. Just like here is shadow of my hand. If I shake my hand, the shadow also shakes. The Maya is acting like that. In the Bhagavad-gita also it is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence, prakrti, the nature, or Maya, is acting." Chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga. And next line, icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa. That Maya is acting under the direction of the Personality. And who is that personality? Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. "That personality is Govinda, the Supreme Person. I am offering my respectful obeisances." So Maya is acting under the direction of Krsna just like the shadow is moving under the movement of the original. So Maya's position is not degraded. Don't think like that. Therefore Vaisnava offers all respect to Maya because she is working under Krsna. She is Vaisnavi. She is also energy of Krsna. Therefore she is also Vaisnavi. In the Candi... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.8-12 -- Los Angeles, November 27, 1968